Thank you so much for taking the time to comment.

I think that my comments “he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to” come from having read all Bill Johnsons books, heard the sotries and having been to conferences with Bill Johnson and knowing the presence of God in those moments for myself.

I personally experianced “gold dust” on my own hands and watched it miraculously appear. There were no special effects, I touched nothing, I just had my hands out infront of me, worshiping. My eyes were open and the presence of God so obvious and apparrent. Others had spoken of this phonominom before and to be honest I was skeptical on one hand and disapointed on the other that I had not experinced it my self. Having said that I determined that it was not about gold dust, or anything else other than encounterning God and I knew that Gold Dust was no validation of me or indeed God. It was at that point that as I looked at my hands I watched tiny, tiny sparkling fleks start to appear on my the thumb of my left hand, get more and more obvious and then “wipe” across to the little finger of my right hand. I watched it happen. No one else had it on this occasion, it was nowhere else on my body so it was not falling from the ceiling or anything and as I say I was touching nothing! It was aone time deal, never happened since, but I know that it happened for sure!

I am also confident that Bill is the real deal is becasue I have had several (half a doxen or more) people that I know, trust and respect spending time in the heart of the church there and hearing of all of the things that go on there … not just the miraculous!

The challenge is that I do struggle with some of the Bethel theology, some of the things that Bill says but do not want to miss out on what the Holy Spirit is doing in Gods Grace through the church in Bethel. It might be worth you reading too my post called EAT THE MEAT, SPIT OUT THE BONES as I unpack that a little more.

On the subject of “Bill’s apparently lazy approach to testing the spirits or verifying any of the healings and such that are going on” I must admit to being suprised that this is your take. There is a testimonies page on thier web site http://www.ibethel.org/testimonies which has hundereds of stories of healings, many have doctors reports in and one ends with a doctor giving his life to Christ because of the extraordinary healing he witnessed in this patient and another one he was connected to. (http://www.ibethel.org/testimonies/2012/04/18/healed-of-late-stage-throat-cancer) Here is an extract …

“Ryan said, “But I got healed. I don’t need the medicine anymore.”

The doctor ordered a new battery of tests and told him to come back in three days. When he returned, the doctor had a group of other doctors gathered around.

He put the original slides up of Ryan’s throat and asked them for a diagnosis. “Cancer,” they said. And then the doctor showed them the more recent slides. “You can’t explain this,” he said. “This is a complete healing!”

The doctors were flabbergasted. The last woman to look at the slides began to weep.

Ryan said, “I felt so excited! I was completely healed! I felt like I won the lottery.”

A few months later, the doctor had another case like Ryan’s and realized that only God could do such miracles. He gave his life to the Lord. As Ryan said, “God didn’t just heal me from cancer, he used it in so many ways. The doctor is a believer, and I have a new identity. I’d never want to do it again, but I have to say, the cancer was worth it.”

It is my understanding that Bethel (Bill Johnson) employs one person to collect testimonies and follow them up constantly and thoroughly. Also I beleive that Bill has a doctor on his team, which adds extra strength and wisdom to what is going on and I assume what is being claimed too!

So, My feeling is that there is much we dont understand about God’s Grace. The bible says “For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Mat 5:45) “he gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6) I know that and I do find Bill Johnson a humble man. The measure of power that Bethel, and others are seeing, is a reflection of God’s grace, not always a validation of the man, or his teaching necesarily (See here), but, to quote a phrase “he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to”

Hope that helps

Andy

Sorry this is so long after the fact – I like your post and that you have a balanced view.

You have said several times that “but he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to.”

I suppose I just have to ask – is he? There are several possibilities here. On the one hand the stuff he sees isn’t necessarily of God (as he himself admits) but on the other, often people see what they want to see, and stories regularly get exaggerated in the church.

What’s been bothering me recently is Bill’s apparently lazy approach to testing the spirits or verifying any of the healings and such that are going on. If they’re real, why don’t they get verified medically (I can’t find examples anyways, and Bill seems averse to the idea)? Why is there a resistance to people who want to test things? Why does the “glory cloud” look exactly like cosmetic grade glitter right down to the hexagonal particles and properties? Why don’t they let people check out the airvents? Why does the glory cloud seem to coincide with focused stage lighting that makes it super hard to see where it comes from? I understand that such fraud would be a HUGE accusation, but then I’ve heard some pastors say that it’s ok to do that sort of thing if it puts more focus on God.

I’m just not convinced they’re actually seeing the Spirit at work, because they aren’t really testing anything beyond “let’s ignore that and just focus on God” which I think misses the entire point of “test everything”.

When the intellectual is downplayed or demonised that’s generally a good sign that something is badly wrong. So don’t be quick to assume that the signs and wonders they see are real, and don’t be quick to want what they have just because you hear stories.

We often recommend our friend Wally Fahrer at Anchor Ministries (http://www.anchor-christian-counselling.org/wjf.htm)

I am not sure If he uses CBT or not, but it would be well worth dropping him an email.

Hope that helps

Andy

I don’t remember Jesus preaching freedom of worship for other religions.

I do know that in Acts 17:22-31 gives us the opinion of God on this matter.

Just going to highlight verse 30-31:

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.

And of course to put this in context, this was Paul’s words to the Athenians in relation to their worship of other gods.

It is therefore missing the point to say that Christianity opens up the way for members of other religions to thrive in a nation practising their pagan faiths. Wow God forbid!

I’m not politically correct i know. However, I believe in speaking the unadulterated truth of God’s word.

However, yes Britain was raised up to be Great Britain back when the nation was still Christian in the original sense of the word. Today a departure from the laws and statutes of God specifically, the bible and an embracing of the ways of the world has led to the decline of Britain. Political correctness and Globalisation become keywords and spawned words such as ‘Tolerance’ and these precepts of men have now taken precedence over the commandments of God.

So it is good that the prime minister has said something like this.
I would go further to say that Britain needs to come back to the living God, not just values and traditions but a revival and a wholehearted turning to God in repentance.

Christianity in essence is still offensive when the message of the Cross is preached, Jesus is still THE way, the truth and the life. not a way but THE way. And there people are stumbled. We are not to compromise truth for the sake of converts, then we just get weak Christians, easily offended, loving the blessings but shunning the cross, producing the current spiritual status quo in people and the eventual lie that all faiths lead to heaven

The matter is one purely of the heart – our bodies are living temples of the Holy Spirit and our thoughts should be more on Him than our own personal self gratification.

Wish i had read this years ago. In years gone by I have been troubled by this very question. Praise God, he gave me insight and a greater deeper desire for Him rather than for myself.

God bless you.

I think diaries are only part of the story aren’t they. – I don’t diarise any time to eat, yet I make time for it every single day! – Indeed, if my diary did have ‘eat’ in it, some would think I had some sort of disorder (and I think that’s the same with our families)

The reality is that we put things in our diary that we have to ‘do’. it has very little with who we ‘be’.

I find it really exciting that as a recently new Christian that you are still pursuing Jesus and that you want all of your life to honour Him! Well done and keep pressing on.

My advice and thinking on this would be two fold. First of all it sounds like there may be people who are pressurising you and making more of this than I personally would have issue with. If this tattoo of a little devil is part of your life before you became a christian then both you, and your protagonists, need to remember that at your conversion God declared your righteous and forgave you not because of what you had done, not because of what you looked like but because of what Jesus did on your behalf (Ephesians 2:8-9)! The bible tells us that at this point the old disappeared (2 Cor 5:17) and a new life started. So the reality is that in God’s eyes I don’t think it is an issue. It may even serve as a constant reminder of the life you were rescued from. If I had it, I think I would use it as a conversation piece saying it is a constant reminder of what a little devil I was before I met Jesus!

That said, I can also see that it may be an issue to you, a concern, a deep regret or just something that you see as not honouring to God and so would love to do something about it and I totally get that too. What you have over it is totally up to you a cross might work. Not knowing how big the current tattoo is its hard to say but design with FORGIVEN in it might be appropriate. As I was thinking about my response I wondered if, regardless of the design you chose, if you put a bible verse under it. As I considered this I thought a cheeky one you could use, which mean more to you because you know what is underneath, would be 1 John 3:8 – The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil!

I hope this helps

Big Blessings

Andy

When I said it, it was not in an irreverent way, it was not to “bring myself to his level”. Quite on the contrary. It was because in that moment, I was humbled and reduced to the likes of a small child, vulnerable and full of faith, feeling the grand embrace of my unfathomably great and loving father. I had committed myself to Him entirely, and let myself be utterly dependent on Him, as a small child would. You must understand that, I have never felt close enough or open enough with my earthly father to call him “Daddy”. Ever. The amount of love that I hold to that word is something I could only use for the One whose love surpasses all.

It takes an INCREDIBLE amount of humility and emotional vulnerability to call God, Daddy. The Bible calls us to honor our parents. How is referring to God as a parent displaying a lack of respect then? If it is, than you are either not properly honoring your parents, or you truly do not know just how much you are loved.

You say that “Abba” was something that Jewish children and adults used to address their fathers. Well, guess what? The word “Father” isn’t anymore. Hardly anyone ever uses that word to address their father. That means that the word “Father” is no longer an appropriate translation. “Dad” or “Daddy” would be far more appropriate.

It takes a lot of faith to realize how much love God actually has for you, and that he truly is your Dad, a loving parent like none you could ever have on this earth. It takes a lot of faith to become that small, faithful child who is completely vulnerable and open and dependent on his/her Daddy.

“Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:4

Note: It says humbles himself “Like this child”, not “Like this adult”.

All this aside, “Dad”, “Father”, “Vader”, “Baba”, “Janak”. There are hundreds of different ways to say it in hundreds of different languages. It’s just a word. God knows what you mean when you address him. He isn’t about technicalities. He’s about what’s in your heart.

Thank you for taking the time to comment. People are often quick comment when my thoughts oppose their own but rather more sluggish to when they agree.

Thank you so much for the encouragement and I am so pleased that you found the blog helpful !

Big Blessings

Andy

Thanks so much for what you wrote!

I was personally encouraged by your honesty and humility. I too love Piper and yearn to be the man that God wants me to be… therefore love Driscoll (seen a few videos of him but have yet to read any of his books).

Anyway, I now live in Taiwan and teach English and the pastor of the church I go to loves Johnson. He is a wise man with a great heart and I am sure he also doesn’t agree with everything Johnson says… even though he quotes him almost every sermon ;0). The church is a wonderful church!

Even though I grew up spiritually/theologically in the Vineyard (Columbus, Ohio) I really haven’t paid attention to all that is out there (good or bad). So statements like anybody who seeks healing from Jesus should be healed both troubles me and challenges me (in a good way)… TRYING TO FIGURE OUT this whole thing .. I really like what you said about fearing lukewarmness more than radicalism and therefore am challenged by my own complacency and that is why I am trying to keep an open heart to Johnson’s messages.

Also, I am encouraged by how you read many other authors and bring it all to your God!!! Ok, enough rambling.. Andy I just wanted to say thank you again because what you wrote reminded me of the balance and wisdom of godly men from my home church back in Columbus. So if anyone from my current church askes me why I don’t agree with aparticualr viewpoint.. I will pretty much quote your blog ;0)

Bless you brother!

Jason

I don’t mean to go on and on, but I am SOOOOO glad that I found his music! It makes me want to study my Bible more, and to worship and get closer to God more:) And thank you for sharing your story as well. It just goes to show that God has no respect of persons. I’m looking forward to my OWN supernatural experiences and miracles with Him now. I’m just starting to fall in LOVE with my Father…all over again:) Thanks for sharing. And Jason, wherever you are, thanks for allowing the Lord to use you as His instrument to draw people closer to HIm:)

Blessings in Christ,
Joseph

Many people (if not everyone) in my church prays using the word ‘Father’, so naturally I have used it to address God before. I stopped using it after a few times because it leaves me feeling uncomfortable. Actually, probably more like insincere. I have never used the word for my own father, but my first language isn’t English. In my language we say ‘Apa’ for ‘Dad’, but I sometimes call my (earthly) father ‘Dad’ when English speaking friends are around.

God is amazing, powerful, awesome, yes, but if we feel like we are ‘not worthy’, he is ‘too good’ or something of the sort, it seems like we are pushing him away. (Remember when Jesus washed his disciples feet? Peter looked Jesus square in the face and said ‘No!’)
I’m getting to know Jesus more and more every day. Seeing his personality and character through the things and people he created. When I look at the relationship Jesus and the disciples have, I feel that it is completely alright to refer to him as you will. For me, ‘Father’ feels like I’m pushing him away. It might bring him closer for other people who have a different feeling/view of the term.

If you put Jesus’ personality to the text when you read the bible, you will get the whole picture. Jesus was VERY intimate with his disciples: who were his friends, his family – people whom he loved and cared for greatly. They were together a long time – lived together, traveled together, laughed, joked… Jesus calls us friends, whether we are comfortable being called that or not (John 15:15). I don’t think there is such a thing as being too intimate with God. We are SUPPOSED to know and experience Jesus JUST AS the disciples did.
(1 John 3-4 We saw it, we heard it, and now we’re telling you so you can experience it along with us, this experience of communion with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. Our motive for writing is simply this: We want you to enjoy this, too. Your joy will double our joy!)

Sorry if this offended anyone – it wasn’t meant to.This is just my views, what I have experienced of Jesus.

http://www.livingepistles.com/images/screensavers/ForgivenScreen.jpg

In Christ

I think it is taught either by Paul or Peter in the NT that we have the same relationship with God as Christ by what he done on the cross.

Some men do have a advantage on this blog as they are fathers but I think all of us (girls too ) can relate to this daddy thing. Some good points in relation to both Abba and father being used in conjuction with each other. Also having a real fear of God. Saying that the intimacy and dependence we have on God. Go back to when you were a child. Who fed you? Who bathed you? Who clothed you? You get the idea. Total trust and dependence on our daddy father. I see him as Lord of Universe and Holy, Holy, Holy but with the Christ they know me to the last hair on my head. The interaction is the most personal, honest and loving even if I don’t understand. Just like a child with daddy when he tells him some thing or teaching him. Infinite dealing with finite. The creator shaping his creation. I suspect any Father will want to teach his children the best things about life. How many little boys want to be like their dad when their very young. Christ our Lord and saviour and who we will all be judged by at the end but he is also our brother and friend. He is leading the way, the full revelation of God. Be a child and follow, do things that would make God happy. Follow the word with insight try to find good teachers but without ever losing the ability to think and tackle differcult parts of the Bible. Just like with a child daddy will be pleased. Christ as Lord will be pleased. Do in the knowledge that we are are bond servants to Christ but family at the same time. Contridicting myself maybe but I hope this lifts some Brothers and Sisters up.

In Christ

If my wife ever changes her mind and says she is cool with me having one … that is the one i want !

Please dont get the wrong end of the stick. My reason for mentioning Piper and Driscoll is to make the point that even our heros, and Piper & Driscoll are my heros, do not have a monopoly on the truth! We all get it wrong some of the time even Johnson, Driscoll, Piper … me! So I was not looking to make a detailed point on Driscoll’s position, or Piper’s, just to say that even with them I need to check, validate and test against scripture.

As far as Driscoll being a cessationist, I think clearly he is not a theological cessationist because as you rightly say he teaching about gifts of the spirit, but practically he exhibits those tendencies. When I met and spoke with Driscoll with other Elders from my movement we asked him about how the manage the gifts of the sprit operating in their sunday meetings. His response was … we dont … we dont have gifts operating in the sunday meetings … hence my comment. If you have read his 1st book I think it was then at the back there was a question about speaking in tongues in meetings again he says they dont allow it … again hence my comment.

As for Piper, I was not in anyway looking to write him off at all. He is a mighty man of God and a real gift to the church and I am personally so very thankful to him for his books … As I say he is a hero of mine and I have read many of his books more than once. However, I did find his audio download on it to be a little geared to the bad pastoral experiences he had to unravel because of the faith, health and wealth ministries that I found his position to be more protective of that position rather then what I would be comfortable with. However, I would hold totally Pipers position on sovereignty and suffering and do find that aspect of Johnsons teaching impossible to swallow.

All that said, my point in using those men as examples was not to pull them down in anyway, but more to try and encourage those who would be out on a witch hunt for bill johnson because of disagreements over certain aspects of his teaching. I wanted to encourage people to hold on to the good and simply reject that which they think was bad rather than throw the baby out with the bath water.

I do not agree with all Bill teaches, but he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
1 Corinthians 10:23 and 10:31-32
Romans 14
In short, honor God with your body, which is a temple, and glorify Him with it, and do not do anything that may cause your brother to stumble.

The reason I do not currently have a tattoo is more because of Corinthians and Romans and less because of Leviticus.

That being said, I don’t think we should be so quick to dismiss the teachings and laws of the old testament. There are very important things in there that are not explicitly covered in the new testament. I do not think that the bible should have to be redundant to make a specific statement true.

Also, I wondered why in your WWJD section you cited Revelation, albeit a disclaimer, instead of (or without the addition of) expanding upon or provoking thought on the question “WWJD?” If Jesus was with us in the flesh, here and now, I don’t think he would say “Hey, let’s go to the tattoo parlor!” do you?