I am very excited to have booked into the “When Heaven Invades Earth” conference in Tunbridge, Kent this May.
Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson is the Senior Pastor at Bethel Church in Redding, California, where that are seeing what can only be described as amazing and outstanding miracles. What excites me about what I read in books like “When Heaven Invades Earth“, “The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind” (both by Bill Johnson) or even “The Ultimate Treasure Hunt” by Kevin Dedmon is that the culture of the church in Bethel is one that demonstrates the love and power of God not merely in the confines of the church, but outside too.
Whilst some, myself included on occasion, find the outworking of this teaching in some people produces things I find uncomfortable I have become convinced recently that “I should fear lukewarmness far more than I do radicalism (Stef Liston)” . I genuinely believe that the church, and therefore us as those who make up the church, needs to be far more radical than the sedimentary culture we have come to accept as “normal church life” currently dictates. (see our church recent sermon series – The Radical Life of the Normal Christian”
I am convinced that there is more to a Holy Spirit filled life than I currently know or may have experienced personally. I long to experience the tangible presence of God not simply in church (which I deeply desire) but in everything I do. I want to recognise the Holy Spirits presence in every action and learn to hear his voice and follow his lead even as I walk to the coffee shop. Will he speak to me every time? I don’t know to be honest, but I do know that if I don’t listen or if have no expectation that he might, then I will never hear him even if he did! In fact, this Sunday I will be preaching on this very thing … Listen to this FREE Sermon | Download this FREE Sermon).
Mark Driscoll
John Piper
Some have asked me “do you agree with everything Bill Johnson says” and my honest answer is “No, I don’t any more than I agree with everything Mark Driscoll or John Piper says” (both big hero’s of mine). I long for the preaching and communication skills of Mark Driscoll, particularly as that would be one of the gifts I believe God has given me, and I desire to study and understand the scriptures like John Piper. Would I build church like Driscoll? No, not entirely because, by way of example, whilst he is not a cessationist theologically, he is one in the practise of his church meetings and I would want and expect to see the Holy Spirit gifts operating in and through the congregation in our meetings. John Piper and I would differ in terms of how we perceive the “expectation for healing today” as I beleive that we should pray for the sick and expect them to be healed and that this is not something where we simply see glimpses of today but should wait for the fullness on Jesus return. (and I submit these differences very humbly and not saying that are factually correct, but are just my perceptions at this time). So “do I agree with everything Bill Johnson says”, No I don’t… but he is seeing something of the power of the Holy Spirit that I am, thus far, not seeing and I would be foolish to reject it simply because there are some areas of theological difference. As another pastor friend of mine recently said “We must learn to be discerning. How about following a biblical model like the Bereans of Acts 17:11 who are definitely among ‘the early church’. When they heard Paul’s teaching they examined the scriptures daily to see if these things were true.“ The Church in Bethel are seeing cancer healed, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing as they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Are these miracles necessarily a reflection of their theology? Possibly not. Is their theology a reflection of their experience of the Holy Spirit? Maybe. Do miracles validate their theology? No I don’t believe so, but it does validate the grace of God! All I can say is that the New Testament clearly teaches that the power of God is demonstrated through the working of the Holy Spirit in signs and wonders and this is something I long for but am not yet seeing in my own life and ministry. So I guess I want it all, to know scripture like Piper, preach like Driscoll and demonstrate and know the power and kingdom of God like Johnson but most importantly to know it personally… a high expectation maybe but impossible? Why should it be?
So it is my desire is to see more of the demonstrated power of God, to experience personally the power and presence of God more deeply in my own life and to be a conduit for impartation of that power and presence of God through my preaching, my leading, my praying or whatever I do. Right now am I seeing and experiencing that? No, not in any significant or regular measure and certainly not in the way Bill Johnson, for example, is seeing it. I am therefore continually searching the scriptures and prayerfully asking God for a greater measure of his Holy Spirit and a deeper experience of his presence. Is this the final objective? No, of course not. I live to worship him, my objective is always his glory. However as John Piper would say “God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him” and so if my goal is his glory then as Psalm 16:11 tells us “in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore” I can seek pleasure in him and find fullness of Joy in his presence. It is his presence that I find the satisfaction that most satisfies me and most glorifies him. I long to experience the Holy Spirit manifesting the presence of God and to see and experience the power of the Holy Spirit over sickness and much more besides. This is why I read the bible and books by Piper, Johnson, Driscoll and many others (You can see my most recent reading lists here). I look to many different people, in many different church and denominational streams in order to gain the elements of knowledge, wisdom and revelation that God has, in his grace, made known to them. I believe that that God, in his wisdom, has not given his whole reveleation to one man, or one denomination, but it is “through the church (the universal church) the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known” (Eph 3.10). No-one has a monopoly on the revelation of God. As Don Smith from NewFrontiers very famously said “Get milk from lots of cows, but churn your own butter“!
So it is for this reason that I am excited about going to the “When Heaven Invades Earth” conference in May as I long to have imparted something of the revelation that Bill Johnson has received and to mix it with the wisdom and revelation of others and with my own understanding, revelation and experience. I want to see, understand and hopefully experience and have imparted to me something of that Bill’s revelation, not simply intellectually but experientially and supernaturally. I am not throwing my theological convictions out the window nor will I cease to be discerning, but I am looking to add to my knowledge and experience something from those who are clearly experiencing something in God that, as yet, I am not!
Awesome, that was explained real well. I appreciate your clarity.
Andy,
Thanks so much for what you wrote!
I was personally encouraged by your honesty and humility. I too love Piper and yearn to be the man that God wants me to be… therefore love Driscoll (seen a few videos of him but have yet to read any of his books).
Anyway, I now live in Taiwan and teach English and the pastor of the church I go to loves Johnson. He is a wise man with a great heart and I am sure he also doesn’t agree with everything Johnson says… even though he quotes him almost every sermon ;0). The church is a wonderful church!
Even though I grew up spiritually/theologically in the Vineyard (Columbus, Ohio) I really haven’t paid attention to all that is out there (good or bad). So statements like anybody who seeks healing from Jesus should be healed both troubles me and challenges me (in a good way)… TRYING TO FIGURE OUT this whole thing .. I really like what you said about fearing lukewarmness more than radicalism and therefore am challenged by my own complacency and that is why I am trying to keep an open heart to Johnson’s messages.
Also, I am encouraged by how you read many other authors and bring it all to your God!!! Ok, enough rambling.. Andy I just wanted to say thank you again because what you wrote reminded me of the balance and wisdom of godly men from my home church back in Columbus. So if anyone from my current church askes me why I don’t agree with aparticualr viewpoint.. I will pretty much quote your blog ;0)
Bless you brother!
Jason
Jason,
Thank you for taking the time to comment. People are often quick comment when my thoughts oppose their own but rather more sluggish to when they agree.
Thank you so much for the encouragement and I am so pleased that you found the blog helpful !
Big Blessings
Andy
Andy
Interesting article and well thought through. Steve Petch has recently posted an interesting article on his new blog that you and I know is referring to Bill and Bethel.
In your interaction with other leaders in New Frontiers do other churches have the same regard for Bethel and Bill as many in KCH seem to?
Because of what heppend recently I have been listening to much teaching on Suffering, Sovereignty and Gods justice from the likes of Piper, Driscoll, R C Sproul, D A Carson and John Stott. Obviously all reformed in their approach to theology and scripture I have found the teaching personally challenging to the core and comforting at the same time.
Do you have any links to teaching, on sufferng in this world, from Bill Johnson. I suspect his approach will be rather different unless I have toally misunderstood where he is coming from. Which of course is entirely possible.
Andrew
Andrew
As I say in this post I don't agree with everything Bill Johnson says, and as I have sited one of the ways in which I differ with Driscoll and Piper I don't mind saying that based on what I think I understand of Johnson's position on the sovereignty of God I would differ with him in that area. Johnson would have a more "Armenian" theology on this and I am Calvinistic in mine.
BUT, as I have tried to express in this post that even when we differ with individuals theology we do need to be recognise that they are people of faith and the spirit and are moving in a measure of the spirit and of His power that we are not.
Adrian Warnock, the author of "Raised with Christ" and regular preacher at Jubilee church in London (a New Frontiers church) told me this … "We need to be exposed to people of faith and the spirit who's theology we despair of sometimes, purely and simply because the challenge is if we are honest that there are not many with our theology who are full of the power we seek to the extent we seek it. Dotting I's and crossing t's theology IS important but taken to far it seems to quench the Spirit."
Our challenge is to "Eat the Meat and Spit out the Bones!" Personally I do not want any reticence I have regarding fanaticism (fanaticism being the pendulum swinging so far to one side) that I either take the opposite position in order to "balance" out the so called fanaticism or that I fall into "Lukewarmness", that is to take the moderate middle ground, just to avoid extremes.
We are called to be discerning as many will come, the bible tells us, claiming to be a type of Christ, or I guess to have a special revelation or something like that. BUT, staying safe was clearly not in Jesus's mind when preaching the sermon on the mount, or when he was challenging the religious people of his day. He was not orthodox in his behaviour nor in his teaching or his actions. So, as I have quoted Don Smith in my post "let us get milk from lots of cows, but churn our own butter". Lets remain diligent, examine the scriptures, be discerning but stay open to have our positions and theology challenged.
Steve Petch, in his blog, (who I quote in this post) was addressing a statement that Bill Johnson made that was, in my opinion and Steve's it would seem, easily open to misinterpretation and, in Steve's words "theologically frail". His point, like mine, was not to be destructive but to challenge us to be discerning and not see the amazing miracles that are occurring in Bethel necessarily as God's endorsement of EVERYTHING that Bill says or does. Like I say "I don't agree with everything Bill says", but he is seeing something in the Spirit that we read about in the early church that, as yet I am not.
To finish … In our acceptance of anyone's teaching in a particular area we are not, and should not, by default, accept everything they say as equally true or equally right. Similarly, let us not, in rejecting someone's position or theology on a particular issue, reject out of hand everything they say or teach. Both of those positions will, I believe, rob us of much that God would teach and reveal to us.
Andy, yes I get the point and don't disagree with anything you have said and although it may sometimes sounds like it I haven't written off Bill Johnson as not having anything to add to my understanding of God. One of the articles I have on my list to read re suffering is from John Wesley who is as far as I know not reformed in his theology yet I know will be important to listen to. So I am not against listening to people who's theology differs from mine.
I genuinely want to know how Bill would deal with the issue of suffering in his theological view since he is so focussed on healing. I want to understand the tension between the views of God healing and the fact of suffering biblically. Not to be divisive or destructive but to understand others views and sharpen my own convictions.
So if you have read any articles or heard any sermons of his that address the issue I would be grateful if you could point me at them.
Andrew, Sorry if I got hold of the wrong end of the stick
also sorry that the reply went on a bit … but what do you expect when you ask a preacher a question 
All of Bill's stuff is on http://www.ibethel.tv but you have to pay for it! You can buy it by single download at $1 a go or something similar.
He does touch on it in books like "strengthen yourself in the lord" but its not a book about the sovereignty of God per sey.
I guess you would have to search the http://www.ibethel.tv site for something more specific. You tube has some stuff. There is this one on Abiding Faith and this one on Why does God allow evil/suffering/corruption in the world?" which may give you a taster.
Hope that helps, and sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying
Andy, not a problem! Thanks for the links, will take a look! Though $1 seems a bit steep
Here is a link to the Bethel Free Media (I think)
Enjoyed this discussion, have you got a link to Steve Petch's blog post? Personally, I'm thoroughly enjoying Bill Johnson's books and teaching, and most especially the worship that comes out of Bethel. They have a grasp of intimacy with the Holy Spirit that I am fiercely jealous of, and an emphasis in just simply knowing God that I cannot flaw.
I've forgotten what the gist of armenianism and calvinism mean in my flurry of excitement about the liberty that Johnson et al have given me in terms of -salvation doesn't come by being a good theologian (which you could have quoted me in saying 2 years back), but that rather there is grace for each of us today….
and so come, as per Good Morning, Holy Spirit (am I loving Benny Hinn???) and Surprised by the Voice of God (Jack Deere is it), and Captivating (John & Stasi Eldridge), and The Shack (I dont remember who thats by, but Im sure you know), or 'Compelled by Love', by Heidi Baker… that anyone who cant read because they are too poor, or hasn't read their whole bible (how many of us have that pang of guilt that we haven't,,,,,,) but that God is still available to these people?
Hmm I've just found Steve Petch's blog… and realise that I wrote last nights comment in my night time thinking (which is sometimes a little red faced!!)
Not sure you'll have read what I wrote yet, but I appreciate more the other side of the coin having read Steve's blog. I just think that it's too bad that you have to defend going to Bill Johnsons conference, when he's so clearly about something good.
And I wonder if he has a point in emphasising the Holy Spirit a little more than we tend to…??
Hi Katy
First of all let me say that this blog post was not written to "defend" going to the conference. In some ways it was quite the opposite. I have, in the past been somewhat cautious about Bethel and some of Johnson's teaching because, as I have explained, of the theological differences I have. That caution may have resulted in some thinking that "I would not touch Bethel with a Barge pole" and that is not, nor never has been the case.
Steve Petch and I are great friends and I think coming at the same issue but from slightly different stand points. We are both saying that we have to be discerning, we are both saying that we must always look to take the good and reject the "less good" because we both see that there are many people who are less discerning (or gullible as Steve puts it) who don't read their bible and who don't read widely and who simply take on board all that proceeds from a particular stable as being inerrant! (often because they see the miracles as validating everything) and do not come to a conclusion based on scripture or anything else.
As I have tried to communicate here there are things coming from Bethel and Bill Johnson that we would be foolish to ignore or write off. This is particularly true if the main reason for that is that there are some theological "I's" that need dotting and "Ts" needing crossing. As Adrian Warnock said to me "We need to be exposed to people of faith and the spirit who's theology we despair of sometimes, purely and simply because the challenge is if we are honest that there are not many with our theology who are full of the power we seek to the extent we seek it. Dotting I's and crossing t's theology IS important but taken to far it seems to quench the Spirit" and I agree with him. I long for an intimacy with God that produces the power of the Holy Spirit in my life and it seems to me that Bill Johnson has caught something of the heart of God in that area and I long to drink from that stream and get in some way a measure of what he is seeing and experiencing. This does not mean that I have accepted ALL of Johnson's theology or to be honest changed mine, but I will not allow that to rob me of a legitimate blessing and revelation of God.
I have experienced personally situations where I have seen good biblcal NEw Testament doctrine put to one side because of a statement Bill Johnson made that is easily open to mis-understanding and/or mis-interpretation – Which I think was Steve's point. We value BOTH the Word and the Spirit as leaders and in our churches. We can't value one over the other because it would be like valuing breathing in more than breathing out! (I think that is a fantastic parallel that Steve drew)
The lesson here for me is this … I should not let my doctrine or theological position prevent me form seeking the measure of intimacy with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that Bill Johnson is teaching. NOR should someone who is enjoying a measure of the intimacy of God and fellowship of the Holy Spirit prevent them from reading, studying and enjoying the inerrant word of God or throw our reliable N.T, Doctrine over personal experiences . We must, in Steve Petch's words be just as excited to breath out and to breath in!
Hope that helps …
Thank you for posting this journal of your thoughts. I’ve personally struggled with some of Bill Johnson’s teachings…especially after he has endorsed Todd Bentley to be restored so quickly. However, I have read his book, The Supernatural Power Tranformed Mind and Heaven Invades Earth. We also have done a few things with the Supernatural School of ministry. I’ve found Bill to be a convincing teacher who, as you say, is experiencing something of heaven that we might not be, but want to. I’d like to hear your thoughts of the conference now that its May 2010.
Hey Guys,
here is a link for Bill Johnson sermons going back about 3 years.
http://ewenhuffman.podbean.com/
Also check out Mike Bickle, I’ve found him to be a great mix between theology & the move of The Spirit. With everyone we should always have an eat the meat spit out the bones approach.
http://www.mikebickle.org
Hi all,
Interesting article, its hard to find discussions comparing Piper/Johnson.
I come from this charismatic culture and have been actively involved with these groups and ministries.
I was personally involved for years in the outpourings in Toronto, then I moved to Kansas City to be a part of Mike Bickles ministry, pre & post IHOP (he has quoted Piper on occasion and one the former associate Pastors on Staff is a peer of Pipers, Sam Storms also know as the charismatic calvinist)
I went to the Lakeland Revival and saw Todd Bentley and was very much engaged with all this signs and wonders and prophetic etc. From the 80′s I had been following much of what came out of the Vineyard and similar groups.
So from my perspective I find it interesting that someone who comes from a more ‘churchy’ background like yourself is excited about Bill Johnson. Bill Johnson is a very ‘cool’ preacher. I taught a small group using his book “When Heaven Invades Earth small group study” and played all those tunes coming out of Bethel. I have friends that just finished Bethels School of worship and friends whom I prophesied that they would move on from our church. And they did – to Bethel in Redding Ca.
This is a long winded self acknowledging intro but I needed to build some history in order for you to see from my vantage point.
In one day all of my excitement that I had invested into the message of healing & revival coming out of Bethel suddenly stopped. It was not because I read some bad press or the like but rather it was scripture that I was preparing to send someone that has set me at odds with the message of Bill Johnson and his peers.
I was convicted through the word of my own condition, and I was broken in an instance. Jeremiah records God saying “Is not my word a fire? A hammer that breaks the rock to pieces?” Well his word did that to me.
If you are interested in that story click here
http://matthew7fourteen.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/journey-man-ch1/
So I have gone from being a Charismatic christian to putting all that is awesome and wonderful within this revival culture aside for I did not know Jesus Christ like I should.
It is my conviction that much of what you long for in Bill Johnson and the like may actually lead you and others away from Jesus. I wrestle with this often, but His word has bore witness to me and what I used to engage with and endorse I now publicly renounce if asked or have a place to comment like this
His written word has become precious to me. For the first time in my Christian life I have given myself to the daily study and devotion to His word. Jesus is exalted above all and His word always points me towards him. This current Charismatic activity seems to blur Christ and even omit Him all together. Church history is no stranger to those who would remove the person of Jesus for some other activity. (Montanus for example)
So please don’t let your hunger for the supernatural open a door for you that you would start to accept what may be false and leading away from Jesus our Lord. Hunger has a way of making even bad tasting food seem desirable.
Peace in Christ Jesus
Ted
Very interesting submission my brother. All I wish to contribute is this: Because I study the Word I end up longing for more of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and for expressions of the supernatural. Intimacy with the Trinity is my desire. The Word is what propels me to want more, to seek for more, to acknowledge that there is more than what I read in a printed, leather bound book. Grace and peace to you. Sandra
I have a question… many have stated here that Bill Johnson, even though you may not agree with some of his theological stuff is experiencing something of heaven.
How do you know it IS of heaven? What if it is all false signs and wonders being manifested by that “Angel of Light”?
If the theology is questionable, then is it possible the leaven has indeed leavened the whole lump? Teaching and all?
Can what is occuring be tested and proven biblical as the Bereans did… (and please, single verse proof-text is not the way to do this)?
Listen, I have come out of this stuff. Nothing has happened that has been faith shaking, nor have I been offended by anyone. I love the Lord esus more today than I have ever before. His word IS a lamp unto my feet. I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit is for today. Just one day, a light went on, I prayed intensly about this, because I wanted to be on the proper road and relationship with my Lord, and I believe the Holy Spirit showed me the error and danger of many of the teachings that are based on the things the like of Bill Johnson and many others are teaching. I also believe the word tells us to seperate from it.
My issue is what if the meat is rotten and it is all bones? What if there is no baby in the dirty bath water? What if THIS is part of the apostasy that ocurs before the return of our Lord?
am a student at Bethel….and LOVE the Word of God….really appreciate the initial installment on this page. while i dont’ agree with everything Bill teaches…he is filled with the fruit of the Spirit and is one of the most humble men I have ever had the privilege of sitting under. I know he gets some things wrong….and if asked he would tell you that he knows the same thing. this is true for all of us….the main thing is to repent when God shows us where we are wrong. I believe Bill is quite teachable and I am constantly amazed at the incredible insight that comes out of Him.
in school (Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry) we learn church history, study scripture, and learn to experience God in all of His fullness. I am a 4 point Calvinist and have loved my time at Bethel thus far. are there things that i would have them do differently? absolutely! but i still am thankful to God for what they are attempting to do and for the most part doing quite well.
as for Bill’s approval of Todd Bentley…..i will just say that this has been greatly exaggerated. Since Bentley’s fall, he has not spoken at Bethel and has not been invited to the School. no doubt Bill tried to encourage Todd during lakeland…but once that imploded, Bill has been very careful about attempting to restore him too quickly to ministry, although Bill’s heart seems to be VERY much for restoration of Todd to a healthy place. but judging by the fact that it is 2011 and Bentley has not been invited to the school or church since stuff went downhill, i think it is fairly safe to say that Bill is not taking the restoration process lightly.
http://youtu.be/LA6Pnqu86oE
Here’s a link from a pastor at Bethel named Kris Vallotton. This is, in my opinion one of the best sermons that I have heard on what our approach should be in reading the Word. The title is: “The Book Leads to The Author.” This summarizes the beliefs and Bethel’s overall approach to the Word of God. The approach is Spirit lead.
He even outlines specific “Divine paradoxes” or “contradictions” in the Bible. Usually, pastors sweep them under the rug or dance around this issue, but he tackles them head on. For those interested in Bethel’s stand (basically) on the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit’s roll when reading scripture- you will get a lot out of this 15 minute clip of Kris’ sermon.
Also: a common theme I’m seeing is whether or not the signs and wonders that happen at Bethel are a sign that God approves of their theology. Bill Johnson warns his own congregation and points out how scripture shows that you can know God’s work, but not His ways. The Israelites are a perfect example of that. They saw supernatural provision and wonders from God on a daily basis, and it most certainly had nothing to do with how “right” they were in their ideas or dealings with God.
Psalm 95:8-11 (emphasis added) “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in the wilderness, when your fathers have tested Me; They tried Me, though THEY SAW MY WORK. For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts, And they DO NOT KNOW MY WAYS.’ So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest.’”
They saw God’s work, they still did not know His ways. Moses said in Exodus 33:13: “….show me now Your way, that I may know You…” Bill Johnson warns his congregation that signs and wonders of God are not a sign that they are theologically accurate on every issue, they’re simply there because Jesus said we have access to them (John 14:12)
Also: In this sermon clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbipMIHI_hI
Bill Johnson talks about how the nature and perfect will of God is shown in the person of Jesus. This can help some of you better understand Bethel’s stance on the God’s sovereignty. Hope this helps!
Just a correction to make. You’ve said that Mark Driscoll is practically a cessationist in the running of his church. That certainly doesn’t appear to be true judging (at least) from his sermon series on Corinthians-Christians Gone Wild, particularly the several sermons on Spiritual Gifts…
And as for Piper, I think others who’ve posted here have some good points. How does Bill Johnson explain the sovereignty of God in sickness and healing amidst a ministry that says salvation has freed us from all sickness and death?
Piper’s treatment certainly seems to echo more closely the teaching of the bible, the experiences of the apostles (Paul’s thorn, Timothy’s stomach pain, etc) and general exerperience in the world…I think you’re also writing him off too soon…
Hi Ben
Please dont get the wrong end of the stick. My reason for mentioning Piper and Driscoll is to make the point that even our heros, and Piper & Driscoll are my heros, do not have a monopoly on the truth! We all get it wrong some of the time even Johnson, Driscoll, Piper … me! So I was not looking to make a detailed point on Driscoll’s position, or Piper’s, just to say that even with them I need to check, validate and test against scripture.
As far as Driscoll being a cessationist, I think clearly he is not a theological cessationist because as you rightly say he teaching about gifts of the spirit, but practically he exhibits those tendencies. When I met and spoke with Driscoll with other Elders from my movement we asked him about how the manage the gifts of the sprit operating in their sunday meetings. His response was … we dont … we dont have gifts operating in the sunday meetings … hence my comment. If you have read his 1st book I think it was then at the back there was a question about speaking in tongues in meetings again he says they dont allow it … again hence my comment.
As for Piper, I was not in anyway looking to write him off at all. He is a mighty man of God and a real gift to the church and I am personally so very thankful to him for his books … As I say he is a hero of mine and I have read many of his books more than once. However, I did find his audio download on it to be a little geared to the bad pastoral experiences he had to unravel because of the faith, health and wealth ministries that I found his position to be more protective of that position rather then what I would be comfortable with. However, I would hold totally Pipers position on sovereignty and suffering and do find that aspect of Johnsons teaching impossible to swallow.
All that said, my point in using those men as examples was not to pull them down in anyway, but more to try and encourage those who would be out on a witch hunt for bill johnson because of disagreements over certain aspects of his teaching. I wanted to encourage people to hold on to the good and simply reject that which they think was bad rather than throw the baby out with the bath water.
I do not agree with all Bill teaches, but he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to.
Hi there Andy,
Sorry this is so long after the fact – I like your post and that you have a balanced view.
You have said several times that “but he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to.”
I suppose I just have to ask – is he? There are several possibilities here. On the one hand the stuff he sees isn’t necessarily of God (as he himself admits) but on the other, often people see what they want to see, and stories regularly get exaggerated in the church.
What’s been bothering me recently is Bill’s apparently lazy approach to testing the spirits or verifying any of the healings and such that are going on. If they’re real, why don’t they get verified medically (I can’t find examples anyways, and Bill seems averse to the idea)? Why is there a resistance to people who want to test things? Why does the “glory cloud” look exactly like cosmetic grade glitter right down to the hexagonal particles and properties? Why don’t they let people check out the airvents? Why does the glory cloud seem to coincide with focused stage lighting that makes it super hard to see where it comes from? I understand that such fraud would be a HUGE accusation, but then I’ve heard some pastors say that it’s ok to do that sort of thing if it puts more focus on God.
I’m just not convinced they’re actually seeing the Spirit at work, because they aren’t really testing anything beyond “let’s ignore that and just focus on God” which I think misses the entire point of “test everything”.
When the intellectual is downplayed or demonised that’s generally a good sign that something is badly wrong. So don’t be quick to assume that the signs and wonders they see are real, and don’t be quick to want what they have just because you hear stories.
Hi Rob
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment.
I think that my comments “he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to” come from having read all Bill Johnsons books, heard the sotries and having been to conferences with Bill Johnson and knowing the presence of God in those moments for myself.
I personally experianced “gold dust” on my own hands and watched it miraculously appear. There were no special effects, I touched nothing, I just had my hands out infront of me, worshiping. My eyes were open and the presence of God so obvious and apparrent. Others had spoken of this phonominom before and to be honest I was skeptical on one hand and disapointed on the other that I had not experinced it my self. Having said that I determined that it was not about gold dust, or anything else other than encounterning God and I knew that Gold Dust was no validation of me or indeed God. It was at that point that as I looked at my hands I watched tiny, tiny sparkling fleks start to appear on my the thumb of my left hand, get more and more obvious and then “wipe” across to the little finger of my right hand. I watched it happen. No one else had it on this occasion, it was nowhere else on my body so it was not falling from the ceiling or anything and as I say I was touching nothing! It was aone time deal, never happened since, but I know that it happened for sure!
I am also confident that Bill is the real deal is becasue I have had several (half a doxen or more) people that I know, trust and respect spending time in the heart of the church there and hearing of all of the things that go on there … not just the miraculous!
The challenge is that I do struggle with some of the Bethel theology, some of the things that Bill says but do not want to miss out on what the Holy Spirit is doing in Gods Grace through the church in Bethel. It might be worth you reading too my post called EAT THE MEAT, SPIT OUT THE BONES as I unpack that a little more.
On the subject of “Bill’s apparently lazy approach to testing the spirits or verifying any of the healings and such that are going on” I must admit to being suprised that this is your take. There is a testimonies page on thier web site http://www.ibethel.org/testimonies which has hundereds of stories of healings, many have doctors reports in and one ends with a doctor giving his life to Christ because of the extraordinary healing he witnessed in this patient and another one he was connected to. (http://www.ibethel.org/testimonies/2012/04/18/healed-of-late-stage-throat-cancer) Here is an extract …
It is my understanding that Bethel (Bill Johnson) employs one person to collect testimonies and follow them up constantly and thoroughly. Also I beleive that Bill has a doctor on his team, which adds extra strength and wisdom to what is going on and I assume what is being claimed too!
So, My feeling is that there is much we dont understand about God’s Grace. The bible says “For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Mat 5:45) “he gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6) I know that and I do find Bill Johnson a humble man. The measure of power that Bethel, and others are seeing, is a reflection of God’s grace, not always a validation of the man, or his teaching necesarily (See here), but, to quote a phrase “he is seeing something of the power of the holy Spirit that I am not … and would like to”
Hope that helps
Andy
I agree with you there Pastor Andy; after all, we are but deeply fallen humans. Not a single one of the church Fathers got everything right, and we should not expect that modern day clergy would get every point of theology correct either. I think the safest place to stand in any of these issues is on the Cornerstone Himself; Christ Jesus. If Christ crucified and resurrected in the flesh is being preached in any church, then I am convinced that the Gospel truly dwells in that congregation, despite other nit-picky theological points.
Blessings in Christ,
Joseph
Granted, none of us gets everything right. But, presumably, we can agree that it’s important to get the Gospel right. Bill Johnson teaches (Dec. 11, 2011, p.m. service sermon titled “The Requirement of Miracles”) that the Gospel must be accompanied by signs and wonders–not could, not should, but must. Where does that leave those of us who have believed and preach a Gospel that isn’t consistently accompanied by signs and wonders? By his own confession, Bill Johnson’s gospel is a “different gospel” than that preached by most of the Church for the last 2000 years. How is it possible to give him a pass by ignoring his explicit design to redefine the Gospel? I submit that he should be taken at his word as preaching a “different gospel” and assigned the proper and full consequences of doing so.
Awesome. I’m British and Christian. I’ve just checked out of my corporate job in Central London and booked into The Bethel School Of Supernatural Ministry for 9 months. I was here in January and I met with God and it changed some paradigms in my life. After this I’m going to see where God takes me but whatever I do I think I will embrace a Kingdom mentality. Interestingly, I’ve been here one week and I feel my faith is grown. Our first homework was to review WHIE and Bill Johnson invites at least two criticisms of his book in the report. He very much sees himself on a journey like anyone else. To complete the course you have to be willing to make mistakes in your pursuit of the Kingdom they say here.
Hey Ryan – Go you!
I checked out of my corporate job as International Sales and Marketing Director in 2006 to be full time in ministry – Knowing it was God’s call assured me that I would never look back and I haven’t. You will have an amazing time! I have 2 friends at the school now. One in their 1st Year and one in the 2nd! I wonder if you know them?
I have just been accepted on the EVENING School of Supernatural Ministry at North Kent Community Church here in the UK which I am really excited about.
thanks for taking the time to comment on my Blog
Blessings
Andy
Thanks so much for sharing this it has really helped
I like all these people, I listen to them and have thier books..and I am so excited by seeing what God is doing at Bethel at the moment and have been to some of the events in Kent hosted by a church linked with them…I was questioning myself a little in regards to whether I was wrong in being excited about the workings going on at Bethel due to others view of Bill Johnson and discussing his theology and began to have doubts but I love going to my friends church…Its been very good to read this.
Thanks.