I am very excited to have booked into the “When Heaven Invades Earth” conference in Tunbridge, Kent this May.
Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson is the Senior Pastor at Bethel Church in Redding, California, where that are seeing what can only be described as amazing and outstanding miracles. What excites me about what I read in books like “When Heaven Invades Earth“, “The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind” (both by Bill Johnson) or even “The Ultimate Treasure Hunt” by Kevin Dedmon is that the culture of the church in Bethel is one that demonstrates the love and power of God not merely in the confines of the church, but outside too.
Whilst some, myself included on occasion, find the outworking of this teaching in some people produces things I find uncomfortable I have become convinced recently that “I should fear lukewarmness far more than I do radicalism (Stef Liston)” . I genuinely believe that the church, and therefore us as those who make up the church, needs to be far more radical than the sedimentary culture we have come to accept as “normal church life” currently dictates. (see our church recent sermon series – The Radical Life of the Normal Christian”
I am convinced that there is more to a Holy Spirit filled life than I currently know or may have experienced personally. I long to experience the tangible presence of God not simply in church (which I deeply desire) but in everything I do. I want to recognise the Holy Spirits presence in every action and learn to hear his voice and follow his lead even as I walk to the coffee shop. Will he speak to me every time? I don’t know to be honest, but I do know that if I don’t listen or if have no expectation that he might, then I will never hear him even if he did! In fact, this Sunday I will be preaching on this very thing … Listen to this FREE Sermon | Download this FREE Sermon).
Mark Driscoll
John Piper
Some have asked me “do you agree with everything Bill Johnson says” and my honest answer is “No, I don’t any more than I agree with everything Mark Driscoll or John Piper says” (both big hero’s of mine). I long for the preaching and communication skills of Mark Driscoll, particularly as that would be one of the gifts I believe God has given me, and I desire to study and understand the scriptures like John Piper. Would I build church like Driscoll? No, not entirely because, by way of example, whilst he is not a cessationist theologically, he is one in the practise of his church meetings and I would want and expect to see the Holy Spirit gifts operating in and through the congregation in our meetings. John Piper and I would differ in terms of how we perceive the “expectation for healing today” as I beleive that we should pray for the sick and expect them to be healed and that this is not something where we simply see glimpses of today but should wait for the fullness on Jesus return. (and I submit these differences very humbly and not saying that are factually correct, but are just my perceptions at this time). So “do I agree with everything Bill Johnson says”, No I don’t… but he is seeing something of the power of the Holy Spirit that I am, thus far, not seeing and I would be foolish to reject it simply because there are some areas of theological difference. As another pastor friend of mine recently said “We must learn to be discerning. How about following a biblical model like the Bereans of Acts 17:11 who are definitely among ‘the early church’. When they heard Paul’s teaching they examined the scriptures daily to see if these things were true.“ The Church in Bethel are seeing cancer healed, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing as they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Are these miracles necessarily a reflection of their theology? Possibly not. Is their theology a reflection of their experience of the Holy Spirit? Maybe. Do miracles validate their theology? No I don’t believe so, but it does validate the grace of God! All I can say is that the New Testament clearly teaches that the power of God is demonstrated through the working of the Holy Spirit in signs and wonders and this is something I long for but am not yet seeing in my own life and ministry. So I guess I want it all, to know scripture like Piper, preach like Driscoll and demonstrate and know the power and kingdom of God like Johnson but most importantly to know it personally… a high expectation maybe but impossible? Why should it be?
So it is my desire is to see more of the demonstrated power of God, to experience personally the power and presence of God more deeply in my own life and to be a conduit for impartation of that power and presence of God through my preaching, my leading, my praying or whatever I do. Right now am I seeing and experiencing that? No, not in any significant or regular measure and certainly not in the way Bill Johnson, for example, is seeing it. I am therefore continually searching the scriptures and prayerfully asking God for a greater measure of his Holy Spirit and a deeper experience of his presence. Is this the final objective? No, of course not. I live to worship him, my objective is always his glory. However as John Piper would say “God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him” and so if my goal is his glory then as Psalm 16:11 tells us “in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore” I can seek pleasure in him and find fullness of Joy in his presence. It is his presence that I find the satisfaction that most satisfies me and most glorifies him. I long to experience the Holy Spirit manifesting the presence of God and to see and experience the power of the Holy Spirit over sickness and much more besides. This is why I read the bible and books by Piper, Johnson, Driscoll and many others (You can see my most recent reading lists here). I look to many different people, in many different church and denominational streams in order to gain the elements of knowledge, wisdom and revelation that God has, in his grace, made known to them. I believe that that God, in his wisdom, has not given his whole reveleation to one man, or one denomination, but it is “through the church (the universal church) the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known” (Eph 3.10). No-one has a monopoly on the revelation of God. As Don Smith from NewFrontiers very famously said “Get milk from lots of cows, but churn your own butter“!
So it is for this reason that I am excited about going to the “When Heaven Invades Earth” conference in May as I long to have imparted something of the revelation that Bill Johnson has received and to mix it with the wisdom and revelation of others and with my own understanding, revelation and experience. I want to see, understand and hopefully experience and have imparted to me something of that Bill’s revelation, not simply intellectually but experientially and supernaturally. I am not throwing my theological convictions out the window nor will I cease to be discerning, but I am looking to add to my knowledge and experience something from those who are clearly experiencing something in God that, as yet, I am not!
Awesome, that was explained real well. I appreciate your clarity.
Andy
Interesting article and well thought through. Steve Petch has recently posted an interesting article on his new blog that you and I know is referring to Bill and Bethel.
In your interaction with other leaders in New Frontiers do other churches have the same regard for Bethel and Bill as many in KCH seem to?
Because of what heppend recently I have been listening to much teaching on Suffering, Sovereignty and Gods justice from the likes of Piper, Driscoll, R C Sproul, D A Carson and John Stott. Obviously all reformed in their approach to theology and scripture I have found the teaching personally challenging to the core and comforting at the same time.
Do you have any links to teaching, on sufferng in this world, from Bill Johnson. I suspect his approach will be rather different unless I have toally misunderstood where he is coming from. Which of course is entirely possible.
Andrew
Andrew
As I say in this post I don't agree with everything Bill Johnson says, and as I have sited one of the ways in which I differ with Driscoll and Piper I don't mind saying that based on what I think I understand of Johnson's position on the sovereignty of God I would differ with him in that area. Johnson would have a more "Armenian" theology on this and I am Calvinistic in mine.
BUT, as I have tried to express in this post that even when we differ with individuals theology we do need to be recognise that they are people of faith and the spirit and are moving in a measure of the spirit and of His power that we are not.
Adrian Warnock, the author of "Raised with Christ" and regular preacher at Jubilee church in London (a New Frontiers church) told me this … "We need to be exposed to people of faith and the spirit who's theology we despair of sometimes, purely and simply because the challenge is if we are honest that there are not many with our theology who are full of the power we seek to the extent we seek it. Dotting I's and crossing t's theology IS important but taken to far it seems to quench the Spirit."
Our challenge is to "Eat the Meat and Spit out the Bones!" Personally I do not want any reticence I have regarding fanaticism (fanaticism being the pendulum swinging so far to one side) that I either take the opposite position in order to "balance" out the so called fanaticism or that I fall into "Lukewarmness", that is to take the moderate middle ground, just to avoid extremes.
We are called to be discerning as many will come, the bible tells us, claiming to be a type of Christ, or I guess to have a special revelation or something like that. BUT, staying safe was clearly not in Jesus's mind when preaching the sermon on the mount, or when he was challenging the religious people of his day. He was not orthodox in his behaviour nor in his teaching or his actions. So, as I have quoted Don Smith in my post "let us get milk from lots of cows, but churn our own butter". Lets remain diligent, examine the scriptures, be discerning but stay open to have our positions and theology challenged.
Steve Petch, in his blog, (who I quote in this post) was addressing a statement that Bill Johnson made that was, in my opinion and Steve's it would seem, easily open to misinterpretation and, in Steve's words "theologically frail". His point, like mine, was not to be destructive but to challenge us to be discerning and not see the amazing miracles that are occurring in Bethel necessarily as God's endorsement of EVERYTHING that Bill says or does. Like I say "I don't agree with everything Bill says", but he is seeing something in the Spirit that we read about in the early church that, as yet I am not.
To finish … In our acceptance of anyone's teaching in a particular area we are not, and should not, by default, accept everything they say as equally true or equally right. Similarly, let us not, in rejecting someone's position or theology on a particular issue, reject out of hand everything they say or teach. Both of those positions will, I believe, rob us of much that God would teach and reveal to us.
Andy, yes I get the point and don't disagree with anything you have said and although it may sometimes sounds like it I haven't written off Bill Johnson as not having anything to add to my understanding of God. One of the articles I have on my list to read re suffering is from John Wesley who is as far as I know not reformed in his theology yet I know will be important to listen to. So I am not against listening to people who's theology differs from mine.
I genuinely want to know how Bill would deal with the issue of suffering in his theological view since he is so focussed on healing. I want to understand the tension between the views of God healing and the fact of suffering biblically. Not to be divisive or destructive but to understand others views and sharpen my own convictions.
So if you have read any articles or heard any sermons of his that address the issue I would be grateful if you could point me at them.
Andrew, Sorry if I got hold of the wrong end of the stick
also sorry that the reply went on a bit … but what do you expect when you ask a preacher a question 
All of Bill's stuff is on http://www.ibethel.tv but you have to pay for it! You can buy it by single download at $1 a go or something similar.
He does touch on it in books like "strengthen yourself in the lord" but its not a book about the sovereignty of God per sey.
I guess you would have to search the http://www.ibethel.tv site for something more specific. You tube has some stuff. There is this one on Abiding Faith and this one on Why does God allow evil/suffering/corruption in the world?" which may give you a taster.
Hope that helps, and sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying
Andy, not a problem! Thanks for the links, will take a look! Though $1 seems a bit steep
Here is a link to the Bethel Free Media (I think)
Enjoyed this discussion, have you got a link to Steve Petch's blog post? Personally, I'm thoroughly enjoying Bill Johnson's books and teaching, and most especially the worship that comes out of Bethel. They have a grasp of intimacy with the Holy Spirit that I am fiercely jealous of, and an emphasis in just simply knowing God that I cannot flaw.
I've forgotten what the gist of armenianism and calvinism mean in my flurry of excitement about the liberty that Johnson et al have given me in terms of -salvation doesn't come by being a good theologian (which you could have quoted me in saying 2 years back), but that rather there is grace for each of us today….
and so come, as per Good Morning, Holy Spirit (am I loving Benny Hinn???) and Surprised by the Voice of God (Jack Deere is it), and Captivating (John & Stasi Eldridge), and The Shack (I dont remember who thats by, but Im sure you know), or 'Compelled by Love', by Heidi Baker… that anyone who cant read because they are too poor, or hasn't read their whole bible (how many of us have that pang of guilt that we haven't,,,,,,) but that God is still available to these people?
Hmm I've just found Steve Petch's blog… and realise that I wrote last nights comment in my night time thinking (which is sometimes a little red faced!!)
Not sure you'll have read what I wrote yet, but I appreciate more the other side of the coin having read Steve's blog. I just think that it's too bad that you have to defend going to Bill Johnsons conference, when he's so clearly about something good.
And I wonder if he has a point in emphasising the Holy Spirit a little more than we tend to…??
Hi Katy
First of all let me say that this blog post was not written to "defend" going to the conference. In some ways it was quite the opposite. I have, in the past been somewhat cautious about Bethel and some of Johnson's teaching because, as I have explained, of the theological differences I have. That caution may have resulted in some thinking that "I would not touch Bethel with a Barge pole" and that is not, nor never has been the case.
Steve Petch and I are great friends and I think coming at the same issue but from slightly different stand points. We are both saying that we have to be discerning, we are both saying that we must always look to take the good and reject the "less good" because we both see that there are many people who are less discerning (or gullible as Steve puts it) who don't read their bible and who don't read widely and who simply take on board all that proceeds from a particular stable as being inerrant! (often because they see the miracles as validating everything) and do not come to a conclusion based on scripture or anything else.
As I have tried to communicate here there are things coming from Bethel and Bill Johnson that we would be foolish to ignore or write off. This is particularly true if the main reason for that is that there are some theological "I's" that need dotting and "Ts" needing crossing. As Adrian Warnock said to me "We need to be exposed to people of faith and the spirit who's theology we despair of sometimes, purely and simply because the challenge is if we are honest that there are not many with our theology who are full of the power we seek to the extent we seek it. Dotting I's and crossing t's theology IS important but taken to far it seems to quench the Spirit" and I agree with him. I long for an intimacy with God that produces the power of the Holy Spirit in my life and it seems to me that Bill Johnson has caught something of the heart of God in that area and I long to drink from that stream and get in some way a measure of what he is seeing and experiencing. This does not mean that I have accepted ALL of Johnson's theology or to be honest changed mine, but I will not allow that to rob me of a legitimate blessing and revelation of God.
I have experienced personally situations where I have seen good biblcal NEw Testament doctrine put to one side because of a statement Bill Johnson made that is easily open to mis-understanding and/or mis-interpretation – Which I think was Steve's point. We value BOTH the Word and the Spirit as leaders and in our churches. We can't value one over the other because it would be like valuing breathing in more than breathing out! (I think that is a fantastic parallel that Steve drew)
The lesson here for me is this … I should not let my doctrine or theological position prevent me form seeking the measure of intimacy with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that Bill Johnson is teaching. NOR should someone who is enjoying a measure of the intimacy of God and fellowship of the Holy Spirit prevent them from reading, studying and enjoying the inerrant word of God or throw our reliable N.T, Doctrine over personal experiences . We must, in Steve Petch's words be just as excited to breath out and to breath in!
Hope that helps …
Thank you for posting this journal of your thoughts. I’ve personally struggled with some of Bill Johnson’s teachings…especially after he has endorsed Todd Bentley to be restored so quickly. However, I have read his book, The Supernatural Power Tranformed Mind and Heaven Invades Earth. We also have done a few things with the Supernatural School of ministry. I’ve found Bill to be a convincing teacher who, as you say, is experiencing something of heaven that we might not be, but want to. I’d like to hear your thoughts of the conference now that its May 2010.
Hey Guys,
here is a link for Bill Johnson sermons going back about 3 years.
http://ewenhuffman.podbean.com/
Also check out Mike Bickle, I’ve found him to be a great mix between theology & the move of The Spirit. With everyone we should always have an eat the meat spit out the bones approach.
http://www.mikebickle.org
Hi all,
Interesting article, its hard to find discussions comparing Piper/Johnson.
I come from this charismatic culture and have been actively involved with these groups and ministries.
I was personally involved for years in the outpourings in Toronto, then I moved to Kansas City to be a part of Mike Bickles ministry, pre & post IHOP (he has quoted Piper on occasion and one the former associate Pastors on Staff is a peer of Pipers, Sam Storms also know as the charismatic calvinist)
I went to the Lakeland Revival and saw Todd Bentley and was very much engaged with all this signs and wonders and prophetic etc. From the 80′s I had been following much of what came out of the Vineyard and similar groups.
So from my perspective I find it interesting that someone who comes from a more ‘churchy’ background like yourself is excited about Bill Johnson. Bill Johnson is a very ‘cool’ preacher. I taught a small group using his book “When Heaven Invades Earth small group study” and played all those tunes coming out of Bethel. I have friends that just finished Bethels School of worship and friends whom I prophesied that they would move on from our church. And they did – to Bethel in Redding Ca.
This is a long winded self acknowledging intro but I needed to build some history in order for you to see from my vantage point.
In one day all of my excitement that I had invested into the message of healing & revival coming out of Bethel suddenly stopped. It was not because I read some bad press or the like but rather it was scripture that I was preparing to send someone that has set me at odds with the message of Bill Johnson and his peers.
I was convicted through the word of my own condition, and I was broken in an instance. Jeremiah records God saying “Is not my word a fire? A hammer that breaks the rock to pieces?” Well his word did that to me.
If you are interested in that story click here
http://matthew7fourteen.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/journey-man-ch1/
So I have gone from being a Charismatic christian to putting all that is awesome and wonderful within this revival culture aside for I did not know Jesus Christ like I should.
It is my conviction that much of what you long for in Bill Johnson and the like may actually lead you and others away from Jesus. I wrestle with this often, but His word has bore witness to me and what I used to engage with and endorse I now publicly renounce if asked or have a place to comment like this
His written word has become precious to me. For the first time in my Christian life I have given myself to the daily study and devotion to His word. Jesus is exalted above all and His word always points me towards him. This current Charismatic activity seems to blur Christ and even omit Him all together. Church history is no stranger to those who would remove the person of Jesus for some other activity. (Montanus for example)
So please don’t let your hunger for the supernatural open a door for you that you would start to accept what may be false and leading away from Jesus our Lord. Hunger has a way of making even bad tasting food seem desirable.
Peace in Christ Jesus
Ted